Psychology man, it's something...

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dmiles: omfg! i found some ones paper that realized the obvious things i did that 5 years ago that forever changed the way i would do AI/AGI

freeman42x: could you link the relevant paragraph(s) ? the part with the realization
freeman42x: maybe that would give me some insight into how your AGI implementation ideas are supposed to work
dmiles:  https://logicmoo.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/References/Citations/Francescoli2019-DescribingAndAnalyzingAnimalBehaviour/

Even if it has been proposed that there are two different modes of thought—a narrative one directed to think about human action, and a paradigmatic mode to think about natural science and mechanisms—we know that scientists are not restricted to think about problems using

dmiles: see i realized there was no way ever could any animal behavior exist that uses stimulus-response
dmiles: as there is absolutely zero scientific evidence for what 99.% of scientists believe
dmiles: there is not a single viable model or example in nature
dmiles: of a S-R based animal
freeman42x: @dmiles "there is absolutely zero scientific evidence for what 99.% of scientists believe" <- this makes no sense to me. Could you reword what you mean by it in a way in which it is more clear?
freeman42x: cause certainly you do not mean what it seems you are saying
dmiles: i am saying that the last 150 years of neuro-biology has been utter rubbish
koo5: what do you mean by stimulus-response?
dmiles: The stimulus–response model is a characterization of a statistical unit (such as a neuron). The model allows the prediction of a quantitative response to a quantitative stimulus, for example one administered by a researcher. In psychology, stimulus response theory concerns forms of classical conditioning in which a stimulus becomes paired response in a subject's mind.
dmiles: we cannot find one animal in nature that this would be true of
dmiles: yet we can still set up an experiment that deceives ourselves
koo5: you propose that there is always a replay-al of a story triggered?
dmiles: as a society we are so scared of the truth in this experiment that every year 1000s scientists try to continue to show evidence for the absurd hypothesis .. this started 70 years ago
dmiles: always
dmiles: in fact the generation of story is done by output motor neurons that create the conditions for the next story transition which are once again consumed
dmiles: the neural coding of the replay is a copy of the combined process
dmiles: which is how we can make generalities
dmiles: (since that copy is seldom exact .. but close enough we can still "fit things in")
aindilis: What you are saying calls to mind Kuhn's Philosophy of Science and the Structure of Scientific Revolutions: https://www.uky.edu/~eushe2/Pajares/Kuhn.html <- this reference may help you in some way to anticipate the logistics of creating a revolution here
Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions - outline
Outline of Thomas Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions
dmiles: oh yes that is exactly applicable
aindilis: Look at how the Traveler's competition initially laughed off Lenat
dmiles: it explains the current "flat earth" mistake by old science..   and the new one i am experiencing
dmiles: why this seems so important to me is that even if people dont understand logicmoo code they can still understand the science it is based on.. since i suspect most people could suggest things i have yet to realize
aindilis: are you familiar with phylogenetic ritualization?
dmiles: i need to become so.. since I think it is the basis for much of my understandings!
aindilis: I read a story about a goose that walked up the stairs
aindilis: when it got to the top of the stairs, something fell over, and the goose sprinted down the stairs
aindilis: thereafter, whenever the goose got to the top of the stairs, it would turn around and run back down
aindilis: eventually this behavior minimalized, it would only turn around at the top of the stairs and then continue on
aindilis: that behavior based on what "worked" in the past I think is the idea of phylogenetic ritualization, but I cannot find a reference that does it justice
aindilis: is that similar to your theory?
aindilis: I think of your scripts as their rituals in this sense
dmiles: yes that is my theory
aindilis: cool!  now we have a possible name to go on to look up in the literature, it seems to have been mentioned around the 1950s
dmiles: so far LOGICMOO in the only cognitive architecture so far that supports phylogenetic ritualization
aindilis: http://www.pascalboyer.net/articles/BoyerLienardBBS.pdf <- this seems somewhat to mention at least the term
aindilis: if that is indeed what the term means though
dmiles: i tell a lie.. DAYDREAMER does as well.. but those are the only two i know about
aindilis: "The Phylogenetic Ritualization Hypothesis. The Phylogenetic Ritualization Hypothesis postulates that signals evolved from functional action sequences that previously had no communicative function (Darwin 1872; Tinbergen 1952).Jan 24, 2018"
dmiles: Oh i dd find  (Thorndike and (S-R) Cognitive Rules)
Thorndike and (S-R) Cognitive Rules
dmiles: though Beach thinks the conditioning heuristic revolves around 
dmiles: whereas in my theory the conditioning heuristic is based on "what it's used to"  This is due to that fact that the only way to bootstrap (pre-condition the scripts/narratives) thru the DNA was to use a mirroring system
koo5: kinda OT but for once you get too a higher layer  : https://www.amazon.com/Geometry-Meaning-Semantics-Conceptual-Spaces/dp/0262533758  imo kinda explains the step from associative neural firings to more abstract cognition .. but it's between the lines .. the book deals with how you go from what i call "geometric imagination" to words, but i think that at least in terrestrial intelligence development, this book overlooks the phase of wordless-thinking .. but whatever .. heh im' prolly incomprehensible

dmiles: the only way that would fit on the DNA was in terms of a "descriptive" series of motor output that reflect into the animals inner observational system

dmiles: in other words thru motor-sequences  that force the animal to copy an imagined version of its ideal self
jacobpdq: I'm am studying this with my partner as well in@dmiles
dmiles: so the heuristic becomes "hey i did this before" (even though it never had)
jacobpdq: We've come to the conclusion that the narrative 'ripple effect' seems to be some strange magnetic fluctuation in which a resonation is realized for eternity
koo5: sounds right
jacobpdq: Imagine a light/particle resonating superfluid helium chamber/cavity. Then shine light through it. That's the universe imo
koo5: are you suggesting there's an edge i can bounce off?
jacobpdq: The narrative is a great way to describe it, since that's what we've come to use as common discourse
jacobpdq: You mean a limit?
dmiles: weird @koo5 i own 5 copies of a book "The Geometry of Meaning" but by Arthur Young!
koo5: chamber/cavity sounds like something with edges
jacobpdq: If you want to describe bouncing off of infinity, forget you tried
koo5: @dmiles yeah i noticed unrelated same-namers
koo5: ok, well, i'll try it another day
jacobpdq: Lol
koo5: @dmiles ii peeked at one of the "other ones", and it wasn't particularly interesting
jacobpdq: Yeah kind-of. No real edge, no reachable limit...
koo5: a trampoline is kinda like that too
dmiles: actually i am now ready for Gardenfors. The Geometry of Meaning"  . I rejected it when it first came out
dmiles: but i think there is good stuff after a few rethinks
koo5: *thumbs up*
jacobpdq: Funny, the narrative. I spent most of university in a radio & television program capturing & creating narratives
dmiles: what blew my mind ius when one day Schank asked if we could remember anything at all unless we framed the experience into a narrative for ourselves. literaly he meant that we made up a visual or verbal story about what we wanted to remember
jacobpdq: I guessed an "Actor" was just a good choice of words
dmiles: and then they found this was true in mice and rats .. they have to remember everything in narrative form
jacobpdq: And if the mother has a certain narrative, the motor function can be passed down to respond in the same way
jacobpdq: E.g. red light buzzer sound, offspring has same reactions
dmiles: oh i hope you are not getting ito epi-genetics 
koo5: what is your most basic  .. uhh.. definition of "narrative form"? Any set of firings/associations that are performed in a fixed timing/order?
jacobpdq: I'm not trying to..
jacobpdq: We were taught that a narrative form can be.... Anything.
jacobpdq: You know how many kids bullshit their way through school.
jacobpdq: Well, if something tells a story TO ME then it has a narrative form
dmiles: firings that are intended to be received by a neuron cluster that uses a separate tracking system
jacobpdq: It could be a block of glass for all we care
koo5:  okay, it creates a narration inside you thenemoticon_smile
koo5: @jacobpdq
jacobpdq: Yeah the intent has to be there I guess if you want to call it a true narrative (e.g. narration, telling, requiring a medium)
koo5: @dmiles that kinda sounds like what you named "signaling' earlier
dmiles: i dont like that paper used signaling as a word ..  i think he used it to avoid being attacked by non-atheistic scientists
dmiles: signaling was invented as a word to keep the catholic church from freaking out that animals could communicate
dmiles: ideally to avoid religious debates
koo5: ah
koo5: hmmm so is your own idea really narration or rather "talking of neuron clusters to each other"?
dmiles: if animals could understand communication they would maybe need to start preaching to them
koo5: lol
 

jacobpdq: LOGTALK
 

dmiles: hehe
 

jacobpdq: Strange how one can resonate with that story / attempt to fit it in their narrative at the same time
jacobpdq: I'm special; that sounds like he's describing me! (said everyone)

dmiles: Each chamber is made up of several 1000s (not millions) of neurons and each cluster is fully conscious (with ant-like smarts) enough to be able visualize sequegen messages and ask for more or different information.  Your consciousness is such a “chamber”.   It is not possible for it to know what the rest of your chambers know until you make informational requests to them,  and they make informational requests to each other and often back to your (primary narrative) consciousness.  Why we assume we are conscious is, like most chambers, when we process call/response sequegen traffic and  message transfers, both in and out, this results in imagens which causes the sensation that we are alive and thinking.  
dmiles: the honey bee has more than enough neurons to have 20 of such chambers
dmiles: the hive mind is not made up of simple animals combining to complex behaviors.. instead it is the result of each bee sharing neural-coding of at least one isolated chamber  .. this chamber is attempting to experience the quintessential "hive narrative" .. humans as well, have several quintessential narratives
dmiles: I wish i knew how many chambers a human has
dmiles: so far i think 8-20 as enough
dmiles: at least in the brain area.. the body itself contains many more than the brain

koo5: not sure what to think about this last part ..but doesn't matter ..what resonated with me when reading Pei Wang was that it was a complete vision for how it can work, rather than of how it currently works

dmiles

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